Evolution

Jemar Tisby | Splendiferous Wondrous Variations – Podcast-episodes


Tisby:

In Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 after they give the fantastic picture of worshiping God in eternity. God is talking of complete folks teams, he says the nations, he says the tribes, the tongues or the languages, proper? That to me conveys a way that there’s something lovely within the variety globally, of various sorts of individuals, the completely different meals we eat, the completely different languages we converse, the completely different types of clothes and dance and all of that. All of that’s going to be redeemed and preserved to a sure extent within the eschaton. We’re not going to change into some bland, uniform folks. There’s one thing concerning the manifold splendiferous wonderous variations, that God says is nice, and displays who God is extra precisely than if all of us spoke the identical manner, ate the identical issues, practiced the identical customs, you recognize what I imply?

I’m Dr. Jemar Tisby. I’m a historian, creator and a speaker. 

Jim:

Welcome to a brand new 12 months of Language of God. I’m your host, Jim Stump. One of many most important subjects we tackle at BioLogos is what it means to be human. We expect that is actually attention-grabbing and vital to have interaction from each scientific and theological views. (You will discover the six-part collection we did on the podcast final July and August below the title Uniquely Distinctive.) When asking what it means to be human in our tradition as we speak, it doesn’t take lengthy for the query of race to come up. Science pushes us to say that race is simply a social actuality; races as we’ve recognized them don’t observe with genetic variations. So the place did the social actuality of races come from? Sadly, Christian faith has had a outstanding position to play in that growth. That’s a variety of what we discuss on this episode with Jemar Tisby.

In 2020 he revealed The Shade of Compromise: The Reality concerning the American Church’s Complicity in Racism, which turned a New York Occasions Bestseller. Then in 2021 he revealed Methods to Struggle Racism and now simply launched is a younger readers version for Methods to Struggle Racism. Tisby can also be the co-founder of The Witness: A Black Christian Collective and co-host of the Go The Mic podcast. 

We at BioLogos will not be pushing conversations on race due to white guilt, or out of a need to be woke. We achieve this due to our dedication to the theological doctrine that each one persons are created within the picture of God, and since traditionally, folks of African descent have been handled as lower than human on this nation, and that has led to on-going, systemic disadvantages for all folks of shade. We hope that by speaking to folks like Jemar Tisby, we would all change into extra conscious of this example and take accountability for making a extra simply society.

Let’s get to the dialog.

Interview Half One

Jim: 

Welcome to the podcast.

Tisby:

Are you kidding me? I’ve been known as as much as the massive youngsters desk. That is nice. That is nice. Thanks.

Jim: 

Effectively, we’ll get to speaking about race within the church and your new ebook for younger readers. However first, if we might, let’s situate that with a few of your individual story, possibly begin by telling us somewhat bit about the place you got here from? What was your loved ones like rising up?

Tisby: 

Effectively, as they are saying within the Austin Powers franchise, the main points of my life are fairly inconsequential. However because you requested, you didn’t know you’re gonna get that on the BioLogos. I assume that’s it. That’s just the start. So I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois, which is north of Chicago, and I grew up within the Michael Jordan period, and the Bulls six peat period, so there’s no debate concerning the GOATs. I could have simply alienated half your listeners, however you’re by no means gonna persuade me in any other case. Our household was not particularly spiritual. However there was no form of hostility there. It simply wasn’t excessive on the radar, which meant I didn’t change into a Christian till highschool. I ought to say, although, I went to Catholic faculty. So it was saturating my schooling in a variety of methods already. However I went to a white evangelical youth group, acquired invited by a classmate of mine, and the remainder is historical past. I turned a Christian basic evangelical conversion story, proper right down to saying the sinner’s prayer. However it caught. It caught with me and I turned a Christian. I began going to the white Evangelical Church related to the youth group. So race has all the time form of been a part of my spiritual journey. It’s all the time been there. However again in highschool, after which even into school, I didn’t actually have the language to articulate or clarify what I used to be feeling or going by. It was simply form of a factor. I used to be simply making an attempt to find out about Jesus and the Bible and all that good things. And that’s a few of my early story.

Jim:

And since we’re BioLogos, we’ve to ask about experiences with science in your background. I noticed that earlier in your profession, you taught sixth grade science within the Mississippi Delta area, any attention-grabbing reflections from that point interval?

Tisby:

In many colleges, they are going to place academics the place the necessity just isn’t essentially the place the academics have experience. I had no formal background in science. I don’t assume I took something however the physics of music undergrad, and barely squeaked by in that. However I did study lots. I realized lots about science, I realized, we did a giant unit on erosion. That was one in all our favorites. Earlier although, earlier than I turned a trainer, I used to need to be a zoologist. We had a neighborhood that actual property builders hadn’t fairly found at the moment. So there have been all these woods round our home. It was a day and age if you went outdoors within the morning and also you got here again when the road lights got here on. However mother and father didn’t need you again till the road lights got here on, proper? So we have been outdoors all day, day by day, particularly in the summertime. I keep in mind discovering owl pellets with mouse bones in it, snake skins that had been shed, following footprints. I simply beloved being open air. I beloved animals. And for a time in center faculty, I believed I wished to only research animals. In order that’s concerning the extent of my formal foray into science.

Jim:

Good. Effectively, you ended up changing into a historian, your PhD is in historical past, proper? 

Tisby: 

That’s right. 

Jim: 

When did you first assume that was the academic or vocational path you wished to pursue?

Tisby:

It was a confluence of occasions, it was round 2015, I used to be ending up my MDiv at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson. And it was wanting increasingly more like I used to be not going to enter conventional pastoral ministry in an area congregation, however I wasn’t certain what I used to be going to do. This was additionally the time when the Black Lives Matter hashtag goes viral. It’s simply a few months after Mike Brown and Ferguson and the uprisings are nonetheless occurring. I’m making an attempt to make sense of this example similar to everybody else. And as I’m studying articles, and searching into the background, I’m discovering that historians have probably the most useful issues to say. In order that they’re speaking about redlining, they’re speaking concerning the historical past of policing. They appear to have this data about how we acquired right here that I had by no means been uncovered to. I additionally had an excellent buddy, Dr. Otis Pickett, who teaches at Mississippi Faculty at present, and he had simply completed his PhD from the College of Mississippi. So we had all these lengthy conversations, and he helped introduce me to some of us and the division on the College of Mississippi. And I had my spouse’s blessing, that was an important factor. So I went forward and utilized and acquired in.

Jim:

Effectively, I perceive there’s some complexity round that story, the place it stands, and also you’ve instructed a few of that on the on the Go the Mic podcast, and would refer folks there. You’re on a path, no less than, to be in a fairly large deal inside conservative reformed circles of American Christianity. I’ve been round sufficient of these to know that there’s usually a form of, say, superficial need for variety, when it’s actually only a need to get individuals who would possibly look somewhat completely different on the surface, however who might imagine similar to the white folks, so there’s no actual problem to the facility buildings that exist, proper? After which as you describe there 2015, excessive profile murders of black folks by police, and particularly 2016, within the presidential election, the traces of the tradition wars have been drawn in ways in which possibly made it unattainable so that you can keep in these white evangelical circles. Is {that a} honest description of the state of affairs, no less than in broad strokes? 

Tisby:

Completely. The best way I put it oftentimes is, in sure predominantly white areas, they worth black folks and other people of shade for our presence, however not our perspective. So we’re there, and aesthetically, it’s interesting. It makes us all be ok with ourselves that, hey, we’ve variety right here. However then in terms of truly addressing the pressing problems with our communities, a lot of which should do with race, then the needle strikes solely as far as probably the most fragile white individual can deal with to place it that manner. In different phrases, whether or not it’s how forthrightly you converse out about racism, what organizations you companion with, who you invite to the pulpit, no matter it may be, predominantly white organizations, together with church buildings, have a tendency to maneuver on the tempo of the folks they’re going to tick off or who they anticipate ticking off. It’s a basic challenge of who’s on the heart of those choices. So many individuals, the Bible would name it a concern of man, or placing the highly effective white of us, oftentimes they’re the most important tithers and have vital titles outdoors of church, and so forth. They’re placing these of us on the heart and saying, how a lot can I do? What are the boundaries primarily based on the sensibilities of those of us? Quite than centering the marginalized by definition, the marginalized are on the borders, they’re on the sides. So what does it seem like to heart the marginalized and make choices that say, How can I finest stop hurt and promote flourishing for what the Bible calls the least of those? That’s a major shift. Think about making a choice about budgets. Think about making a choice about how to talk about a excessive profile incident of racism when you’ve these completely different constituents on the heart. I simply discovered that in a variety of these, and that is the Deep South, that is conservative Presbyterianism, and all the pieces related to it. It’s reformed, and it’s evangelical. I discovered in lots of these circles that if I wished to speak about racial justice, the way in which I believed it warranted, there simply wasn’t going to be a lot area for me. 

Jim:

Unhappy. 

Tisby: 

I’ll offer you an instance. I imply, my very own church, I’m an intern there, they canceled a Sunday the place I used to be going to evangelise. I used to be too scorching to deal with at that time. It wasn’t that each single individual disagreed with me, it was that sufficient folks throughout the congregation have been upset by issues I used to be writing and saying that the elders thought it wouldn’t be a good suggestion. Now thoughts you, I had preached there a number of instances earlier than. I’m their intern, I’m required to evangelise there. There was a time instantly following the November 2016 election after I spoke about not feeling secure at my white Evangelical Church. Oh, they went to city with that one. After which as of us acquired ahold of this hour lengthy takedown video podcast about me. Talking engagements, preaching engagements, nationwide, canceled inside days. So it was actual, and it wasn’t similar to trolls on social media is all I’m making an attempt to convey. I simply don’t know that, like, okay, possibly we disagree on these items. Is that the extent to which we have to go throughout the family of God? Apparently, so.

Jim:

Very sorry for all of that. It’s exhausting to listen to. I feel we do want to listen to a bit extra although. And I need to discuss somewhat bit extra in a bit about among the historical past of evangelicalism and racism however keep in in your story for somewhat bit. This time period, evangelical, has been so co-opted by politics these days that numerous us shrink back from utilizing it. However there’s most likely one thing least to the adage that you may take the person out of evangelicalism, however you possibly can’t take all of the evangelicalism out of a person, no less than that’s true for me, I feel. What of that theological conservatism did you deliver with you?

Tisby:

I imply, if we take a look at the historical past of the church and theology, the black Christians and white Christians don’t disagree on a complete ton of the foundational components, proper? Like, black church buildings aren’t forming due to controversies over the deity or incarnation of Christ. Like, that’s not the disagreement we’ve. With white Christians, it’s racism. So all through the historical past of U.S. Christianity, you’re going to search out much more in widespread doctrinally, then completely different, what you will see that is a distinction in emphasis. Actually, in most black church buildings, you’re going to search out a way more forthright and free wish to preachers who’re listening, the distinction if you end up in entrance of a congregation the place you’re feeling like you possibly can say exhausting issues, even when it’s exhausting, however they belief you, you’re empowered to say these issues. Versus if you’re in an surroundings the place you’re feeling such as you’re strolling on eggshells. So the liberty to talk about racial justice, there’s an important distinction as a result of there’s a precedence to it that’s existential. If black folks don’t tackle racism, it impacts our livelihood, it impacts our nicely being, it even impacts our life outcomes. So we discuss it way more forthrightly and freely in lots of church areas. However for me specifically, as a result of I used to be launched to the religion by white evangelicalism. I nonetheless have a young coronary heart for white evangelicals and church buildings and establishments which might be predominantly and traditionally white and evangelical. So a variety of of us accused me on-line of simply abandoning this department of the church. You don’t know my story, like I might by no means abandon that historical past, a lot much less even now. Nonetheless continually working with, speaking to, interacting with in very significant methods, from friendships to skilled relationships with white evangelicals within the hopes that we are able to collectively construct a more healthy church by the facility of the Holy Spirit.

Jim:

Let’s lean into that side somewhat bit extra, as a result of I feel that is actually attention-grabbing and actually vital, as a result of now you’ve based The Witness, which is described as a black Christian collective to teach, encourage and empower black Christians of their communities. So inform us somewhat bit concerning the work you’ve occurring there. After which I’ll deliver it again to how this interacts with white Christianity, too.

Tisby:

I’m so thrilled concerning the work of The Witness Inc, we now have two divisions, The Black Christian Collective, which is our multimedia, and academic department, and we even have The Witness Basis, which is our philanthropic model. Let me inform you about these two actual briefly, the witness of Black Christian Collective is our try and construct our personal tables. We began out because the Reformed African American Community, which was ideologically, in a way, it was a saying, Hey, can we pull up a seat at a desk populated by white reformed and evangelical people and establishments? And can you make room for us? Can we form of timidly elevate our hand and say, Hey, we’re right here? Can we are saying one thing? And what we discovered, particularly with the tragic proliferation of anti black police brutality, and all these mobile phone movies popping out, and this renewed dialog on racial justice, we discovered that these tables have been by no means constructed for us. Once more, as I stated earlier, they valued our presence, however not our perspective. You’ll be able to pull up a seat, however don’t say something. Don’t attempt to shift the dialog. Or we’ll deal with your little pet matter of race for a day or two, however then we’re transferring on. So we determined, you recognize what, it’s the web age, we don’t even have to take a seat on the identical tables, we are able to construct our personal. And so the Black Christian Collective is a web site, go to thewitnessbcc.com. We’ve got weblog posts and articles, we’ve not only one podcast, however a complete suite of podcasts, we’ve movies. And it’s our try to deal with the core considerations of black folks from a Christian perspective. I’m so happy with the work they’re doing there. The outgrowth of that isn’t simply the data, however the motion. So the outgrowth of that’s The Witness Basis, which we launched in October 2020 formally. This can be a one in all a form, peerless program. I feel it’s unmatched. I feel it’s finest at school program. What the centerpiece of The Witness Basis is a fellowship that we provide to 5 black Christian leaders, this 12 months it’s six, two of them are in the identical area and they’re splitting the award. We provide it to rising black Christian leaders as principally equipping the subsequent technology of black Christian civil rights leaders. So every of those of us that we’ve chosen in our preliminary cohort is the chief of their very own nonprofit targeted on justice. One is targeted on serving to not too long ago freed, incarcerated folks transition again to common life, one other is targeted on making church buildings extra accessible to black disabled Christians. It spans the gamut. And get this: they recover from the course of two years $100,000 every to go towards their ministries in no matter manner they see match. They will pay themselves, they’ll rent workers, they’ll use it for advertising, analysis, infrastructure, no matter they need, we belief them. So usually, when black folks generally and black Christians specifically, attempt to fundraise, there’s not the belief issue. Individuals are saying, nicely use the cash this fashion, or you possibly can’t use it that manner. We belief these of us. Along with $100,000 funding, in addition they get mentoring and coaching and so they have the cohort expertise with different people who find themselves on an identical journey with them. I feel it’s a finest at school program. I feel it is best to go to thewitnessinc.com and make a donation proper now.

Jim:

There we go. BioLogos viewers, there’s the marching orders name to motion. How aggressive of a program is that this to get into for folks?

Tisby: 

We had over 90 candidates on our first spherical, and we selected six.

Jim: 

Superb. To narrate this then to Christianity extra broadly in America. I’d wish to ask one other query right here as a result of I feel some folks will see a form of pressure right here in what you’re doing as if it’s separating out Christian worship by races, once we must be making an attempt to do a greater job of integrating them. And I need to watch out right here to not convey the mistaken impression, as a result of I feel what you’re doing is superb and I’ll have one thing else to say about that in only a minute. However possibly first, you possibly can reply to that, notably, with that line, from MLK himself about it being appalling that probably the most segregated hour of Christian America is 11 o’clock on a Sunday morning. How does this work you’re doing now match inside that type of imaginative and prescient of reconciling races inside Christianity?

Tisby:  

Effectively, one of many issues that emerges if you research historical past is that there can be no black church with out racism within the white church. I do know that hits of us heavy as a result of what occurs in a white supremacist society is it makes race hyper seen for these thought-about not white, and it makes race practically invisible for these thought-about white. White folks seldom consider themselves as having a race. They’re simply John or Invoice or Susan, proper? They don’t take into consideration maneuvering the world racially, as a white individual, whereas black folks and other people of shade, we’ve no selection. I imply, I’m at my in-laws now, they dwell within the Kansas Metropolis space, after I drive up by the Delta, and components of Arkansas and Missouri, I’m hyper conscious of the place we’re, whether or not I can cease in a fuel station to make use of the toilet and really feel snug, whether or not the police are round and I get pulled over in these closely white areas. If I stroll into your church, one of many first issues I do, simply by reflex and never simply me, each black individual I do know, we scan the room, are there every other black folks right here? Am I the one one? How usually do white folks even assume to try this? So there’s this consciousness of race, that as black folks and other people of shade, we’ve to have, that many white folks don’t domesticate and don’t have it. It stands proud once we work together in church, proper? It stands proud when all of the sermon illustrations you’re utilizing are from a cultural background I don’t perceive. Like, you’re referencing Seinfeld, and I’m like, what about, Residing Single, or no matter it may be, you’re speaking about Associates, no matter, that’s a easy instance. However then it will get to deeper issues like, the place your church is positioned. Am I going to a predominantly white, rich higher center class suburb, and I’m the one black individual, one of many few folks of shade there? I’m not snug on a regular basis in that surroundings. The songs we sing, even the themes throughout the songs. Anyway, the divide is deep, and it’s way more than pores and skin deep. And I feel most black folks, we’re completely tremendous worshiping alongside different folks, if it doesn’t imply erasing my historical past and my heritage and my tradition.

Jim:

So within the BioLogos workplace this previous 12 months for one in all our skilled growth actions, we had the entire workers watch the PBS documentary by Louis Gates, Jr. The Black Church, and it was actually highly effective, uncovered among the deficiencies of my very own schooling and misunderstandings of the black church. However one of many most important takeaways for me from that’s, in response to this query I used to be simply asking you about right here as a result of there it appears there’s this actual distinction between, say, the segregation of Jim Crow and separate however equal on the one hand, and black church buildings on the opposite the place I acquired the sensation from this documentary that the the formation of black church buildings have been extra about African People saying to white folks, will you simply allow us to have this one factor with out coming in right here and messing it up? That it’s an expression of their company and energy, relatively than a logo of being excluded?

Tisby: 

It’s so humorous the way in which these items work. So it’s like, white folks profit from racism and crafted the buildings to actually maintain folks separate, excluded, marginalized, on the backside. However it’s black people who find themselves divisive, who as a result of we’ve shaped communities the place our dignity is affirmed. Like I stated, there can be no black church with out racism within the white church that goes again to the theology dialog we have been having earlier, we weren’t having these deep theological disagreements concerning the nature of Christianity, we simply didn’t need to be handled like second class residents within the family of God. That could be a feeling that persists to this present day. By the way in which, black folks don’t simply should go to white church buildings, white folks can come to black church buildings, we simply don’t need you to come back in and colonize it. You’ll be able to take a look at the Emannuel 9, they welcomed this white supremacist, murdering terrorist, into their Bible research with open arms, sat with him for over an hour earlier than he began capturing and killing. However the black church has all the time been welcoming to individuals who need to worship the Lord, and who respect the truth that we’re made within the picture of God, similar to you might be too. It actually upsets me if folks assume that black persons are those being divisive. Racism is divisive, white supremacy is divisive. We’re making an attempt to outlive. That’s all.

Jim:

Thanks for that. I need to discuss some about your books right here. However first, if we might discuss just a bit bit about race with respect to science and faith, since once more, we’re BioLogos. We’re painfully conscious that science and faith conversations have been overwhelmingly white. However in following this ACR mannequin you’ve proposed, ARC, the place A is for that consciousness, we’re now making an attempt to construct extra relationships, the R, relationships with folks of shade, and we’re dedicated, the C, to pursuing not simply variety, but additionally fairness and inclusion and justice. We aren’t good, and possibly not even a mannequin group on this respect. However we’re dedicated to maintain making an attempt. One of many methods we’re making an attempt is by addressing subjects which might be extra related to folks of shade. We’re nonetheless a science and religion group, so we’re not simply going to desert that mission. However it turns on the market actually are subjects that each science and faith can converse into with some authority, that are related, even very important for folks of shade. And the obvious of those is race itself. So are you able to converse somewhat bit out of your perspective? What does science should say about race after which theology and the doctrine of the Picture of God and what that has to say about race? Make somewhat speech right here, in case you would, attraction to the science and faith crowd of why this is a vital and related matter?

Tisby:

Effectively, science, it may be used for good or for sick, as everyone knows, and that’s the identical with race and racism. So within the nineteenth century, mid to late nineteenth century, you’ve this complete area of pseudoscience rising about race, and dividing all of humanity into this social development of race, I name this a social development, as a result of we all know it’s not rooted in biology. So that is the place you get Caucasian, Mongolian, Negroid, these sorts of categorizations. After all, the scientists making this up, classify their very own folks within the highest, most clever, most objectively lovely class. Fascinating how that occurs; simply so occurred, that we’re in the most effective group, and we’re writing these things, proper? However that catches on society huge and within the church, as a result of it appears to offer an goal veneer to the prejudices which might be practiced each individually and institutionally. That basically causes a variety of issues for society as a complete to assume that individuals primarily based on their bodily options are inferior or superior in sure forms of methods. There’s some actually, actually pernicious and ugly comparisons between black folks notably residing in Africa, and apes, and evaluating us to animals. There was one historic tract that was tackling the query of the humanity, the very humanity of black folks. It was known as The Negro: A Beast or within the Picture of God? And the creator’s conclusion was {that a} negro black individual was extra like unto an animal than a picture bearer of God like white folks. Thus, our correct place in his estimation was subordinate and even enslaved. So science bolsters a few of that, however science may also undo that. Science may also inform us truly, we couldn’t truly bodily reproduce if we have been completely different species. That’s not what occurs, proper? Science can inform us with a DNA mapping simply how a lot we’ve in widespread. How what we name race is mostly a operate of the quantity of melanin in our pores and skin. So science additionally offers us an important backing to say, this complete form of social assemble of race is simply that. It’s imagined. It’s made up. It has actual world results, however it’s not rooted in biology and even ontology if we’re speaking theology. 

Jim: 

So then take that dialog ahead now from the attitude of theology and the picture of God and the need for all of us to be included in that so as to do it correctly.

Tisby:

So I’m gonna make a daring assertion, however I stand behind it. When you make an analogy between the Protestant European Reformation within the sixteenth century, and we all know {that a} massive central focus of that motion was salvation by grace by religion, not by works. You couldn’t pay an indulgence and purchase your strategy to heaven, form of a factor. So the doctrine of soteriology, or the doctrine of salvation. The identical position that that performed within the Protestant Reformation, 500 years in the past, if there may be to be a reformation within the church within the twenty first century, I feel the core doctrine can be the picture of God. The core doctrine can be the picture of God. Take into consideration this, within the very first ebook, within the very first chapter of the Bible, God says in Genesis 1:26-28, allow us to make humankind in our picture, allow us to make him in our likeness. Meaning each human being bears the fingerprints of God. By the way in which, that’s not simply Christians. By the way in which, that’s not simply straight folks. That’s not simply folks on the surface, it goes for incarcerated folks. That’s not only for individuals who converse your language. It’s not for simply individuals who have paperwork saying they are often within the nation. That is radical for the place we’re proper now. We dwell in probably the most numerous, pluralistic nation, most likely within the historical past of humanity. So don’t you assume it could be vital that as Christians, we’ve a sturdy understanding of what it means to be a human and learn how to relate to at least one one other, particularly once we’re completely different? That’s why I feel the picture of God is so critically vital and for this dialog on race. Clearly, it signifies that all folks inclusive of race and ethnicity I used to say regardless, I say, inclusive of race and ethnicity, are equal picture bearers. However look, that’s so theoretical. I don’t know an individual, even the one who I might vehemently disagree with on each different matter, I don’t know an individual who would disagree with the assertion. All folks, together with black and white persons are made within the picture of God, that’s simple to say. It’s a lot tougher to dwell out.

Jim:

I’m wondering if one other one of many factors I’ve seen you making right here must be highlighted as nicely, that some folks would possibly go, yeah, we’re all created within the picture of God. However let me do it on my own over right here with my form of folks, the place we’re lacking one thing in that regard, proper? I feel I’m quoting you right here, no single group can replicate the glory of God by itself. We’d like the variety of all nations and tribes to color a extra full portrait of God’s splendor. Is the picture of God in that sense, and your understanding extra of a communal attribute of us than it’s a person attribute of every of us?

Tisby:

I imply, sure, you’re proper. You need to discuss thoughts blowing? In our western individualized form of mindset once we even discuss concerning the picture of God we are inclined to assume, as a person, one or the opposite individual, all of us bear the picture of God. Seldom do we expect collectively, that we bear the picture of God. However it strikes me in Revelation 5:9 and Revelation 7:9 after they give the fantastic picture of worshiping God in eternity. God is talking of complete folks teams, he says the nations, he says the tribes, the tongues or the languages, proper? That to me conveys a way that there’s something lovely within the variety globally, of various sorts of individuals, the completely different meals we eat, the completely different languages we converse, the completely different types of clothes and dance and all of that. All of that’s going to be redeemed and preserved to a sure extent within the eschaton. We’re not going to change into some bland, uniform folks. There’s one thing concerning the manifold, splendiferous, wonderous variations, that God says is nice, and displays who God is extra precisely than if all of us spoke the identical manner, ate the identical issues, practiced the identical customs, you recognize what I imply? So, I feel lots of people are going to be actual stunned in heaven. Like, I believed all people’s gonna be similar to me. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Jim: 

One other matter that BioLogos has been deeply engaged in for the final couple of years is COVID. As a result of who can’t be? So there’s an apparent scientific angle right here with the understanding of the virus and growth of vaccines and managed research concerning the efficacy of masks and so forth.

Tisby:

Hear, has BioLogos come out along with your definitive belief the science assertion? I need to retweet that one.

Jim:

There’s a giant assertion that one thing like 8000 folks have signed now associated to that. However a part of what we’ve performed is we’ve tried to deal with this from the attitude of Christian religion of loving our neighbor, of laying down a few of our supposed rights for the great of different folks. I do know you’ve talked some about this too. Notably, there are disproportionate outcomes, once more, for folks of shade with regard to COVID. So what’s the message that you simply’re making an attempt to get out about vaccines and masks?

Tisby:

This is likely one of the hardest components of the modern racial justice motion is that so many individuals assume that as a result of we don’t have race primarily based chattel slavery anymore, as a result of we don’t have legalized Jim Crow segregation, and indicators over consuming fountains, and so forth, that racism is a factor of the previous. What they fail to notice is what you simply talked about the disproportionate and adverse influence on black folks and different folks of shade and the poor on account of issues like a pandemic. What they fail to notice is that even once we’re speaking about local weather change, it’s most frequently black communities, communities of shade, poor communities which might be most adversely affected by air pollution, by local weather change, by all the components that go into that, as a result of we’re positioned in these areas deliberately. These are types of modern racism which might be somewhat extra delicate. They’re not as in your face as, oh, you possibly can’t come within the entrance door, go to the again on your meals,. Like that’s overt. That’s clear to see. So if we do away with that we’ve gotten rid of racism in lots of people’s minds. What we’re making an attempt to get of us to see, is the disparate influence, the inequity. Why ought to it’s the case that literal life expectancy is larger or lesser, you possibly can hint that by race? Is it as a result of black folks don’t need to dwell as lengthy? That’s a daft proposition. It’s due to different institutional components that actually make our lives extra hazardous. And people are types of racism. That is what white Christians specifically actually battle to see. As a result of as individualistic as Westerners are generally, Emerson and Smith present of their ebook Divided by Religion as sociologists, white evangelicals, specifically, are hyper individualistic. They don’t see the institutional and the systemic ramifications of racism and inequality. And in case you level it out to them, they’ll say it’s faux information, it’s faux science, it’s no matter. In order that’s the battle. The opposite battle is stereotypes. That black folks don’t need to get the vaccine. When in actuality, though there may be vaccine hesitancy throughout completely different teams, A, the hesitancy is completely different for every group. So once we, as black folks have a historical past of maltreatment by medical professionals, we’re not more likely to belief. After which B there’s additionally a query not of vaccine hesitancy however entry, and it may be lots tougher for black folks, communities of shade, poor folks to entry the well being and medical sources that different communities have. 

[musical interlude]

BioLogos:

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Interview Half Two

Jim: 

I need to discuss now extra particularly about among the books that you simply’ve performed. The primary two that you simply did, The Shade of Compromise and Methods to Struggle Racism appear to first arrange the issue after which present what we are able to do about it. Was that supposed from the start to observe that sequence?

Tisby: 

Sure and no. I had each books in thoughts for some time. However truly, I believed How To Struggle Racism can be my first ebook, if I’m trustworthy. As a result of I got here up with it whereas I used to be doing my coursework for my PhD. I’m studying all these historical past books, I take three seminars a semester, each requires you to learn a ebook per week. And so I’m studying actually dozens of tales. The motion since concerning the Sixties amongst historians has been to have a look at traditionally marginalized teams, that means black folks and different folks of shade, girls, the poor, the voices of individuals we don’t have a tendency to listen to from in a variety of historical past. In order that meant studying lots about racism. I gotta inform you, there’s one thing that hits completely different if you truly learn the main points, as a result of it’s one factor to say, oh, racism was dangerous, we had that earlier than. It’s one other factor to learn concerning the slave market in New Orleans, and the way they’d take enslaved Africans, they’d grease them as much as make their pores and skin look shiny and wholesome. They’d parade girls utterly bare in entrance of ogling slave merchants. They’d separate youngsters on the market, one slave dealer would purchase a 9 12 months previous boy or a six 12 months previous woman, and one other slave dealer would purchase their mom or father. And the weeping and the wails, are you able to think about? Think about any person’s taking your little one promoting them for labor for all times, and also you’ll by no means see them once more. That was the fact. After which much more contemporarily lynching. How they lynched a pregnant girl, how they minimize her abdomen open, and child was nonetheless alive, and so they stomped it to loss of life, earlier than they killed the mom. How Martin Luther King, only a month into the Montgomery Bus Boycott, was on the verge of dropping his religion, as a result of he simply acquired a name at midnight after coming dwelling from an organizing assembly. It stated we’re gonna bomb your home and kill your spouse and your youngsters. For the audacity of not wanting to take a seat at the back of the bus. What acquired me so upset was all of the Christians who knew it was taking place and did nothing. In order that’s the place the thought of complicity is available in. However I wished learn how to battle racism to be my first ebook as a result of I used to be simply so darn mad. I’d wish to assume it was a righteous anger. What ought to our response be at these egregious injustices? I feel it’s a righteous anger. So I wished to say, nicely, let’s do one thing. However I spotted different folks wouldn’t really feel my identical sense of urgency, what Martin Luther King in his I Have a Dream speech known as the fierce urgency of now, I spotted that they wouldn’t have my identical sense of urgency except they knew the historical past that I did. In order that’s the place The Shade of Compromise is available in.

Jim:

Yeah, I feel many people need to acknowledge, sure, there’s an issue and transfer as rapidly as we are able to to the so what can we do about it? However I feel you’re proper that possibly we have to dwell somewhat longer on the issue, let it sink in somewhat deeper, not out of some exhibitionist form of tendency of are you able to consider this, however to say severely, that is actually what’s occurring. And the feedback you simply made, there may be what I feel we have to dwell on somewhat bit extra is that there have been Christians that knew about all these items, and didn’t do any of that. So fairly a little bit of The Shade of Compromise ebook is displaying a few of these particulars. What are a few the episodes that notably stand out to you within the historical past of our church in America, that would have gone very in a different way, however they didn’t and so they considerably affected the place of black folks within the church and in society?

Tisby:  

You’re elevating such an vital level that none of this was inevitable. Our racial panorama, we didn’t even should have a racial system. It was decisions. It was deliberate, intentional decisions by individuals who had energy and authority. And so they might have made completely different decisions. One occasion is in 1667, the Virginia Meeting was a bunch of white Anglican males, so these are Christians, they have been responding to plantation homeowners who have been nervous about missionaries preaching the gospel to their enslaved inhabitants. They stated, don’t try this, as a result of it’s going to offer them these wacky concepts about freedom and equality. So the meeting responded by saying, nicely, we’re Christian so we must always preach the gospel. However right here’s what we’ll do. We’ll say that if any person believes the gospel and desires to be baptized, they’ll be baptized, however it received’t change their state of affairs as an enslaved individual. In order that they’ll stay enslaved. Baptism wouldn’t imply bodily, materials, social, earthly equality, it simply means religious equality. That dichotomy has persevered to this present day, between the religious and the fabric, and what liberation truly means. As well as, you see the confluence of three issues, race, faith, and politics. You might have this political entity, making a legislation pertaining to faith that’s targeted on race. That tells me, we are able to discuss these items distinctly, however race, faith and politics are all the time intertwined. So don’t inform me I’m being too political and speaking about race. Don’t inform me that speaking about race isn’t doesn’t have one thing to do with faith, as a result of the Virginia Meeting thought it did. One other one which’s very well-known, however I feel we type of underplay the importance of it’s how the main denominations Methodist Presbyterians and Baptists all cut up over the difficulty of race primarily based chattel slavery and whether or not or to not protect it. One of many issues that individuals don’t understand concerning the SBC splitting in 1845, is that they cut up over the query of whether or not a missionary, a white missionary, might maintain slaves domestically, and go preach the gospel to different black and brown folks internationally.

Jim:

As a result of some folks have been saying that’s okay. 

Tisby:

Proper. It didn’t even elevate a flag for them. So the flexibility that that racism and white supremacy creates to have this cognitive dissonance is breathtaking and astounding.

Jim: 

Effectively, there’s a longtime theological custom in America that may typically be vital of the theology of black theologians, charging them to be unorthodox normally by taking a line or an concept out of context. However there’s greater than a tad of hypocrisy there, proper, that since among the white theologians held up because the very fashions of orthodoxy consider that chattel slavery was okay. Inform us somewhat about George Whitfield or Jonathan Edwards on this regard. This was surprising to me. I would like to listen to it and I do know different folks want to listen to this.

Tisby:

So George Whitfield was British, however was an evangelist in the USA was one in all these of us who was a vital determine within the Nice Awakening the place hundreds of individuals got here to religion. He was initially fairly ambivalent about race primarily based chattel slavery till he came upon how profitable it might be. So any person basically gifted him some enslaved folks. They made him cash, he then used that cash to finance an orphanage in Georgia. Which once more, is that type of cognitive dissonance, proper? You’re doing one thing ostensibly actually good for orphan youngsters, however you’re doing so, you’re financing it primarily based on the financial exploitation and enslavement of African descended folks. And each are true. Then the he went additional, Georgia was initially ambivalent on slavery too, it wasn’t based as a slave state. However Whitfield truly writes the governor of Georgia says, Hey, you bought to get in on the slavery factor. Y’all could make some huge cash and it could possibly set up Georgia. So it’s very deflating. Each Whitfield and Edwards, after I’m in seminary after I’m studying these books on reformed theology, all these things, they’re held up as these nice fashions of Christian religion and theology. They’re heroes of the religion. Jonathan Edwards, many individuals name him America’s best theologian. To which I say, did you contemplate anybody else aside from white males? Or let’s simply make the bar even decrease, did you contemplate a non slave holder? As a result of we all know not solely that Edwards owned and enslaved folks, we all know the identify. Her identify was Venus. She was 14. Enslaved. I consider, if I recall accurately, the Invoice of Sale is on the again of a chunk of parchment. On the opposite facet a sermon is written. They didn’t have some huge cash for paper again then in order that they use paper over and over. The dissonance. So what I’m saying is, as a historian, I feel we must always find out about these folks as historic figures. As somebody who went to seminary and has an MDiv, as any person who’s ordained to evangelise and educate, as a follower of Christ in the USA specifically, I don’t assume we must be holding up these of us as exemplars of theology or the religion. And what I say is, if you’ll find any person who’s saying considerably the identical issues, however they didn’t personal folks, why not go together with them?

Jim:

Effectively, there are tons extra of these tales that we might discuss. And I encourage all people to learn The Shade of Compromise, actually highly effective in exposing this historical past of compromise. However within the curiosity of time for this dialog, let’s transfer somewhat to the subsequent ebook, Methods to Struggle Racism. Notably right here, the rationale for us speaking proper now could be you’ve a model new one out, a brand new version of this, a younger readers version of Methods to Struggle Racism. How did this come about?

Tisby:  

The parents at Zondervan stated this may be unbelievable for teenagers, will you adapt? It was like, I by no means considered that, however sure. It simply so occurs that we’re on this time the place instructing race, racism, white supremacy in colleges is below assault. Underneath the banner of vital race concept, which we don’t have to enter it, however we all know it is a authorized concept taught in legislation colleges, not Okay by 12 colleges. So what vital race concept has change into is a junk drawer, through which you throw all the pieces I don’t like about what persons are speaking about round race. You throw in phrases like white fragility, and white privilege, and institutional racism, and no matter time period or idea makes you’re feeling uncomfortable turns into vital race concept. Whatever the advantage of it, no matter whether or not it’s truly vital race concept. That’s what’s taking place now. As mother and father, we’ve company, we don’t should take this, we don’t should lie down and lose this battle over schooling and consciousness. So many individuals I talked to whether or not they learn The Shade of Compromise, or Methods to Struggle Racism, in the event that they’re adults, they are saying I by no means knew. They are saying, I want I had identified sooner. Guess what, of us? It’s our alternative to be sure that the subsequent technology of younger folks doesn’t say the identical factor as adults. Which suggests we have to take possession of our youngsters’s schooling generally, however notably round race. Methods to Struggle Racism, the younger readers version is good for teenagers 8 to 12 years previous, fourth by sixth grade, and you’ll go somewhat decrease or somewhat increased, in fact, would possibly even be good for adults. When you’re like me, it is advisable break it down.

Jim: 

I used to be going to say, I simply had a learn by this. And it’d say extra about me, however I believed it was actually participating. Perhaps I have to learn extra younger readers books.

Tisby:

I’m going to get myself in bother. I feel in some methods, it’s a greater ebook, as a result of I needed to assume extra fastidiously by… As a result of racism doesn’t make sense. It so doesn’t make sense. Like how can somebody who’s a distinct pores and skin shade be higher or worse than another person? After which how does it embrace sure sorts of individuals however not others? Like, how did the Irish change into white? You recognize, how? I imply, it has an inner insidious logic, however it’s actually not logical. How do you clarify that to a youngster? I exploit numerous tales, and I exploit numerous private tales. I discuss concerning the Chicago Bulls and I discuss my time, my earliest reminiscences of race. I attempt to join it in ways in which younger folks will perceive. However I nonetheless make the most of the ARC of racial justice, Consciousness, Relationships, Dedication. Then I tailored the steps, together with my co-writer, Josh Mozi, we tailored the steps for younger folks. So it’s issues like take a look at your faculty’s Scholar Handbook, see if there’s something about learn how to deal with problems with bullying which might be racially motivated. It’s operating for pupil authorities, if you wish to be a part of altering the principles and the insurance policies at your faculty, it’s all types of issues, ebook golf equipment, all types of issues that even younger folks can do to actively get in. The opposite cool half concerning the younger readers version is it type of combines Shade of Compromise and Methods to Struggle Racism. So there’s a giant chunk in there about historical past. We discuss, in a delicate manner for teenagers, we discuss Emmett Until, we discuss Rosa Parks, we discuss Ida B. Wells, and Frederick Douglass. We discuss black historical past generally, and we discuss why there’s the necessity, whilst a youngster, to get entangled within the battle towards racism. I’m tremendous enthusiastic about it. It comes out January 4th 2022, it’s accessible for pre-order proper now, wherever books are bought. It could be a lot enjoyable to undergo it along with your youngsters, the younger folks, you get the grownup model, they get the children, you each get the children model, no matter you need to do, however undergo it collectively. I feel it’d be highly effective.

Jim: 

I referred somewhat bit earlier, and also you simply talked about the ARC mannequin that you simply’ve developed, once more, Consciousness, Relationships, Dedication. Right here on this ebook, for the younger readers no less than, there seems like a extremely robust emphasis on relationships. One of many factors you make right here too is that research have proven that in case you don’t make interracial relationships or friendships if you’re younger, it’s lots tougher if you grow old. Is that this an intentional manner of getting at among the extra systemic points that we hear about a lot within the information? That the actual points are these systemic and important race concept and all of this, however that you simply’re approaching it primarily by relationships to start with? Is that what you’re making an attempt to do?

Tisby:  

You bought my technique, you uncovered it. You’re a scientist, you probably did your investigation. Yeah, I imply, look, youngsters have much more alternative and lots simpler alternative to develop relationships with people who find themselves completely different. They’re going to high school, which suggests there’s a bunch of individuals of their type of age and stage of life the place it’s simpler to make pals. Once we’re adults, we’re round youthful folks, older folks, we acquired our personal households, we simply don’t even meet as many individuals as younger folks do. It’s actually a vital time after which I feel even primarily based on our personal expertise, we are able to form of see how this works. Oftentimes, the adults, particularly white folks, who actually get it about race, it began of their childhood. It’s oftentimes youngsters who had a specific upbringing, they performed sports activities, and so they have been round lots of people of shade. They have been missionary youngsters, and actually lived cross culturally in a distinct place. Or they have been navy brats and so they have been thrown in with a complete bunch of various kinds of folks. As a result of they’d these formative experiences, as youngsters being round individuals who have been completely different, possibly whilst a white individual, they have been within the minority in a sure tradition or group, they develop up with a way more expansive understanding of various folks teams, completely different cultures, completely different ways in which folks expertise the world primarily based on their race, or ethnicity, or nationality, or language, or no matter it may be. Wouldn’t it’s nice if we as adults who’re involved about racial justice, deliberately give our younger folks alternatives to work together with of us who’re completely different in order that they develop up figuring out the fantastic thing about variety? That’s all I’m saying.

Jim:

Good. As a manner of connecting these relationships with among the extra systemic problems with race in our nation, I believed you gave a extremely useful dialogue on this ebook too for teenagers, useful for me once more, the excellence between guilt and accountability. Might you discuss that just a bit bit with regard to folks rising up saying, okay, I see that I could also be a part of one in all these majority cultures, extra privileged. And but I really feel dangerous about all this that’s gone on. And the way do I deal with that? This sense of white guilt that will get talked about typically, discuss somewhat concerning the distinction between guilt and accountability.

Tisby:

I actually assume it’s solely troublesome in terms of a subject like race. We perceive the distinction between guilt or culpability and accountability in different contexts. As an example, if I purchase a used automotive, it’s gonna have some put on and tear on it. Perhaps the transmission is wonky. I didn’t try this. I’m not the one who made that an issue, however it’s my automotive now and so it’s my accountability to repair it. In the identical manner as, you get employed at a brand new job, possibly you’re the chief of the group, or you’ve some senior place. So you’ve some say in how issues are going. You get in and discover there’s a variety of dysfunction, models aren’t speaking with each other, persons are at one another’s throats being catty and gossipy, there’s an unhealthy organizational tradition. You didn’t create that, you weren’t even there, you’re not, quote unquote, responsible. However now you’re within the place the place you’re accountable for it, it’s your drawback now. This is identical factor that occurs with race. None of us alive as we speak enslaved folks, like they did 160 years in the past. However the legacy of that we’re nonetheless accountable for particularly as a result of in so many subsequent generations, folks have kicked the can down the highway anticipating it to go away, or another person to deal with the issue. We don’t have time to get into it. So you recognize, I’m not making an attempt to open a can of worms. However that’s the entire reparations dialogue, it could have been lots simpler to deal with in 1866, proper after the Civil Conflict, when all of the enslaved folks have been nonetheless alive. It was like, who does it go to? Final 12 months, I used to be owned by this individual in order that’s who it goes to. Now, it’s much more difficult, proper? As a result of folks need to simply say, nicely, I’m not responsible of it so I don’t have any accountability. Come on. Plus, that’s not the way in which Christianity works, proper? Like, Jesus wasn’t responsible. There are lots of people inside communities that aren’t responsible for the person actions of individuals of their group. However the group has accountability as a result of they perceive one thing just like the widespread good. They perceive one thing like, we’re linked. I don’t know, possibly it’s a operate of being so individualistic. Simply me and my relationship with God, simply me and my Bible, simply me and my actions, and if I didn’t do it, I don’t have any accountability. However once more, I feel it’s very selective. I feel in terms of race, that’s when folks say, nicely, I’m not responsible, so I’m not accountable. I feel if we take a look at different areas of life, we’ll see that we’re not constant in that assumption.

Jim: 

One other actually useful little metaphor you introduced out on this that I feel would possibly assist folks to see among the distinction of the way in which race conversations work for white folks versus folks of shade, is the metaphor you made between the sunshine swap and the smoke alarm. How are these and the way do these converse to our expertise with race?

Tisby:  

So for lots of white folks, racial justice and doing one thing about racism, it’s like a light-weight swap that you simply flip on and flip off. So in 2020, once we see George Floyd within the video with the officer actually kneeling on his neck for over 9 minutes, because it seems, oh, no, we acquired to do one thing. This can be a disaster. We have to march, we have to protest, we have to do a black block on social media to point out our solidarity, no matter it may be, we have to make Juneteenth a vacation. That occurs after which after which it will get exhausting. After which it will get lengthy. Then folks in your loved ones say, oh, you’re posting political stuff, otherwise you’re changing into a type of liberals. Then you definitely flick the sunshine swap off. You return to enterprise as standard. You might really feel dangerous, however you don’t actually do a lot in a different way. However for black folks, it’s completely different. It’s extra like a smoke alarm. Smoke alarm is all the time on. And it must be as a result of it must be delicate to smoke, delicate to hazard always otherwise you’re going to get burned. And the identical factor with race. We’ve got to be delicate to it, conscious of it always, or it’s going to be harmful for us. White folks realizing like this isn’t one thing that we are able to activate and off on the flick of a swap, not one thing that we are able to select to disregard for very lengthy as a result of it all the time confronts us in a roundabout way, form, or kind. True solidarity, true allyship will flip that gentle swap on and canopy it over with duct tape so folks can’t flick it off and keep within the battle with us.

Jim: 

Yeah, that’s actually useful. I imply, that is simply what you’re speaking to earlier, you stroll right into a church, you possibly can’t assist however look across the room to see if anyone seems to be such as you. That is all the time occurring within the background no less than. And extra usually within the foreground, most likely proper? Effectively, this has been a extremely good dialog, Jemar, I respect it. We’re about out of time right here. Perhaps in closing, let me ask what do you hope the way forward for American Christianity and race seems to be like? Undertaking your self forward to the tip of your profession possibly, think about that you simply’re totally happy with what’s been achieved, paint somewhat image for us of what that world would seem like, in case you would?

Tisby:  

You’re giving my powers of creativeness a variety of credit score. But when we use our prophetic creativeness, as Walter Brueggemann says, I feel there’s going to be new church buildings and new establishments, as a result of it’s actually exhausting to show round current establishments that weren’t targeted on racial justice from the muse. I feel we might look again, notably on the 2010s, and 2020s, as a type of flowering of innovation, and entrepreneurship, even inside Christian circles, that whatever the entity’s focus, would perceive the significance and the need of variety in unity from the bottom up. I feel it could be a way more widespread expertise… My hope and my aim is straightforward, and it’s primarily based lots on my expertise of feeling alienated in church buildings. My hope and my aim is that any individual of any race or ethnicity might stroll into any Christian congregation and really feel like they’re dwelling. That feeling of welcome. Even when they’re the one one, however understanding, we worth you for who you might be, and also you don’t should test your tradition or your historical past or your race on the door, we would like you to deliver all of that, similar to God desires you to deliver all of that into God’s presence we would like you to deliver all of that into our presence too. Then lastly, I feel it could be we’ve much more black possession. I imply that each within the financial sense, and within the type of cultural sense. And by way of energy. An enormous problem for white folks goes to be to assist with out being seen, to assist with out type of placing oneself in entrance and saying, take a look at my good works. Meaning empowering black folks than different folks of shade to personal the enterprise or to offer them the cash or finance their endeavor, however allow them to have it. It will get again to that dialog on belief that I used to be speaking about earlier than. To be the type of silent companion in sure methods of racial justice. So what can be the result’s black folks, not all the time having to depend on different folks, however having the sources to do for ourselves the sources that have been and nonetheless are being denied to us in so some ways. So in broad strokes.

Jim:

Effectively, that’s a fantastic image, might it’s so. We pray with you and work actively with you. I hope lots of our listeners right here will learn the books, go to The Witness and make a donation and empower the black group in these ways in which actually need to occur.

Tisby:

I might like it if in addition they adopted me on my publication. If you wish to see my newer writings, books take a very long time to put in writing however I’ve extra to say in between. And you may go to jemartisby.substack.com. Subscribe at no cost or if you wish to assist my work, you possibly can join a paid subscription. In order that’s one other strategy to maintain observe.

Jim:

Superb. Jemar thanks a lot for speaking to me right here as we speak. I’d be happy and proud to face with you anytime, wherever and assist the issues that you simply’re supporting.

Tisby: 

I respect that a lot, I had a lot enjoyable on this. I respect you.

Jim:

Thanks.

BioLogos:

Language of God is produced by BioLogos. It has been funded partially by the John Templeton Basis, the Fetzer Institute and by particular person donors who contribute to BioLogos. Language of God is produced and blended by Colin Hoogerwerf. That’s me. Nate Mulder is our assistant producer. Our theme track is by Breakmaster Cylinder. 

BioLogos places of work are positioned in Grand Rapids, Michigan within the Grand River watershed. You probably have questions or need to take part a dialog about this episode discover a hyperlink within the present notes for the BioLogos discussion board or go to our web site, biologos.org, the place you will see that articles, movies and different sources on religion and science. Thanks for listening. 

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